Give me a break...when is the last time you asked your Chrysler, GM or Ford dealer if the car was assembled in the US? The bottom line is that the profits flow into US coffers....

My husband and I asked the salesman where the car was made that we test drove (Cadillac). He said, "Mexico". We said, "Thanks anyways" and handed the keys back to him. Sad state of affairs, really. Good catch ;)

You should probably do your homework there, Linda. Chrysler is owned by Fiat, and the profits flow into Italian coffers...

oh yea!she just won't go away!!!!!

You're a Democrat as much as I'm a missionary. Obama is too corporate for my taste, but at least he isn't a vulture capitalist.

True MI person? lol He isn't like his Dad. His dad had character. But hey, don't let reality get in your way. Given the mess 30 years of trickle down and free trade made of this country, Granholm deserve a ton of credit for saving the autos. Add in the mindless opposition she faced by Bishop and the rest of the Republican crazies all the while she was in office, it was a wonder she accomplished as much as she did.

agree! The Dems are so scared that Romney will beat Obama that thy are hoping anyone besides Romney gets the nonamation

Obama is the most leftist, socialist president we ever had. Although he took money from his liberal corporate friends, I wouldn't exactly call him corporate.

Obama would love to run against Romney because one of the biggest albatrosses around Obama's neck is Obama-care, which was pattern after Romney care. Only the most conservative candidate can defeat Obama.

Big-league political ads earn coverage when they signal strategies, new issues and points of distinction, just as Super Bowl commercials create a buzz about who's admirable and who's not.

Thanks for reading and commenting, Randy.

So you want a socialist Utopia, where big brother will take care of corporations and individuals alike. We used to live in free country. The more control you give to the government the less freedom you will have. They are already telling you what cars, light bulbs, health care you have to buy and telling religion organization that the 1st amendment does NOT matter and big brother is dictating your religious beliefs.

Read Romneys comments sweetie not the headlines.

Yes, Ron Paul -

After earning a Doctor of Medicine degree from Duke University's School of Medicine in 1961, Paul relocated with his wife to Michigan, where he completed his medical internship at the Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. He then served as a flight surgeon in the United States Air Force from 1963 to 1965 and then in the United States Air National Guard from 1965 to 1968.

oakland, you sound like you are the crook, the bigot and biggest of all fools. You
have a lot of hatred in you, there are some good doctors out there you could go and
talk to.

you are so right, don't buy and they won't make money, but we think of the people
that are working there in the states and that is when people change their minds.
I would never stand in a line for anything and pay the high price they always ask for.

Check the tags on the clothes on your back - and on your TV, your kid's toys, on and on and on. Then let's hear you complain about buying Apple....

Daryl-

I often agree with so much you say. However -

Know plenty of VC and Hedge guys in NY. None of those guys nor any economist would say that in that climate (Fall 2008), would the Auto industry been able to get the bridge loans to stay afloat in a normal managed bankruptcy - liquidation would have ensued followed by suppliers. Cue Depression.

As much as we all disliked it - W and Obama were right on this one. FYI - see today's GM profits. Also, interesting - market share - GM's eating China's lunch.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880404577226822965273262.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

Ooops, meant to say GM is eating everyone's lunch in China.

I could care what Political Party you are from, you hit the NAIL ON THE HEAD. Well said. Facts are hard to dispute, but I am sure someone will try. But like you said, what he did in one year is incredible, the same as Christie did in New Jersey. Accountability and no freakin ATM machine from Government = Solid Fiscal Responsibility.

Erin,

I have worked with many VCs over the years, some are great and others are very bad! I choose to work with the ones I like; I use my own personal moral compass and have actually passed, gave up revenue and walked away from the bad ones. I have even Fired Clients; I refuse to go down the path that will compromise my principals. Yes I have made mistakes and have made many corrections, but I am a work in progress trying to get better.

I still believe we should not interfere with the free market; it certainly has it flaws, but is much better than the politicians making political decisions. I worked at GM for 10 years, I have many friends that work there, lost their jobs and benefits, and it is hard.

GM made the Chinese investments in the Rick Wagoner days, it was the right time to do it and a great investment with real vision. He winds up getting fired for pollitical reasons, what a loss. Today it is viewed as a great thing, who is taking the credit?

However, in life sometimes you have to go through the hard times to get better. God has taught me this lesson many times in my life. However, that is my opinion and we will not always agree. That is why they make many different flavors of ice cream!

Here here..Daryl....you should run for gov., you sure get it right!

Incredible results. They give 1.5 billion in tax cuts to business and raised taxes $7 on Michiganders making more than $334,000 a year while cutting schools and raising taxes on everyone else by $100 - $700.

Daryl,
Thanks so much for explaining your thoughts behind your views - so many do not.

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I wanted to take some time to do a bit of a thought experiment based on your reasoning. I rather enjoy challenging my views.

Hmmm, okay, so I kept playing out the alternative scenarios in my mind. Bottom line for me, given that at the time the auto industry was 3.6% GDP –too much of a risk to just let it go. Plus it’s such an iconic anchor industry in America, I can’t imagine the effect on the national psyche if it went belly up. Lehman Brothers, we can survive without. An entire industry? Don’t’ think so, especially through a rapid liquidation. And, in general, it’s always difficult to prove an alternative would have been better – especially when the course taken has proven decent results in much less time than most of us anticipated.

Snyder, I certainly don’t agree with some of his policies (ie. the Benton Harbor fiasco reeks of crony-capitalism), but he had me at “One Tough Nerd”.

Ackerson - agreed - doing great job especially under circumstances. I don’t think you were necessarily comparing, but Bain is no Carlyle.

(cont'd)

Part 2-

Romney is a good man, but a big challenge in this election – his place as front of the line came up when the party in a ultra-right territory. He can’t run on MA successes because of it. And relatively more moderate (as compared to general tenor of the party currently) R’s like Jeb and Christie ALSO know it. They could neither run nor govern easily in this atmosphere. Plus it will be easier to run in 4 years when the economy will most likely be better, and the surge of the ultra-rights calms down. Everything is cyclic. Also, primary voters already kicked to the curb the candidate who actually had the most conservative governing record– Huntsman.

Anyway, just my two cents. And who knows? A lot could happen in the next several months. We'll see, we're all in this crazy ride together. Thanks as always for thoughtful and respectful conversation.

Erin,

Thanks for your thoughts and I always enjoy a good intelligent respectful conversation, which is why I enjoy posting and conversing on the Patch.

I do not believe if we let GM and Chrysler go through normal bankruptcy it would have shut down the industry. Ford is the shining example that free enterprise works.

At GM many brands were eliminated and many plants were shut down. I know thousands of technical professionals were laid off and many lost their pensions. Why I call it a political bankruptcy is because the UAW was moved as an “unsecured shareholder” in front of “secured shareholders” to save their investments. This broke all contract law and normal bankruptcy proceedings to take care of a special group. The rhetoric was they are protecting the middle class over the fat cats on Wall Street, as it turns out the secured shareholders were teacher, police and other middle class people who lost their investments.

I know some middle class people who lost their life savings in this deal. Now as we move forward would you make an investment if you knew a politician could break contract law and take away your rights as a secured shareholder? That is why we are stagnant as an economy; contract law means nothing when politics are in play.

Again, this is my opinion, not the popular one in the metro Detroit area, but what I believe.

Erin, part 2

Bain is not Carlyle, I agree. I happen to know Carlyle very well and have seen some great things done with their approach over the years. I do not know Bain at all and could not comment, but can see they have a good track record of successes. All VCs see failures, it is a high risk venture they get into at the beginning and sometimes it cannot be fixed. I know this firsthand.

I did like Huntsman and also Cain, but unfortunately they are no longer in the race. When I look at the 4 left standing I am trying to make my decision. Like all of us, they are flawed and I want to make my selection on what I believe are the pressing issues our country faces. I will make my selection on who I think has the best skills to meet those challenges.

Good to hear all comments that are open, honest and not afraid.

Daryl,

You just provided something I had never worked thru nor understood how the UAW got a head of all the Secured Creditors, while the true white collar and true middle class got left holding the bag. Thank you for this insight. And yes Ford is the example that the marketplace works when you let it do its due course. I believe the whole government bankruptcy issue was buying votes, but that is my opinion in the matter.

Daryl - Really interesting points! Thanks for teasing some of these issues apart. Very cool.

Although I would say that the reasons for a stagnant economy are manifold, and much more complicated than potential uncertainty of contract law, I do think you said something profound with:
"Now as we move forward would you make an investment if you knew a politician could break contract law and take away your rights as a secured shareholder? .... contract law means nothing when politics are in play."

Wow, yes. And I think it's so powerful because it can happen with either party in power. As you say, Auto Bailout, and coincidentally with what I already mentioned. Governance by fiat in Benson Harbor.

And just generally speaking when politics go bad with public or private contracts is when there's money influence involved. Local, state, federal. So we should try to get money and influence peddling out, or at least seek true transparency in donations.

Daryl: While I agree with the latter portion of this quote. "This broke all contract law and normal bankruptcy proceedings to take care of a special group." I can not find the section and paragraph of "ALL" the laws that were broken. I understand that this is your opinion and respect it as such. I also know that this is a staple of talk radio. That does not make it accurate or truthful. I don't know one way or the other. I lost half my 401k to the bankrupcy but stayed employeed. I struggle with this subject every day. A little help with some actual data, code, section, paragraph maybe please.

Marty

Marty,

The contract law I speak of is that the “Secured Investors” are in front of the “Unsecured Investors.” The Secured investors paid more for their shares to be in that status, the Unsecured paid less because of the higher risk. All I am saying is this got switched for political reasons and contract law was broken by our government to take care of a special group. Our government called it taking money from the “fat cats of Wall Street”, as it turned out it was the public pensions for school teachers, police and firefighters who paid the price. By the way, this is personal; a close relative (middle class) lost his life savings because of this political move.

Now I see a pattern. Let's look at Solindra, when the government went in for another investment to this failing group the investors were put in front of the taxpayers when it came to bankruptcy. For the first time the government moved behind the investor group, why are these guys not called Fat Cats? They got paid and we the government investors took a bath. A $500,000,000 bath.

As an investor in companies, believe me I am small time, I will not put my personal money at risk in this environment of political decisions at the whim of a government using power it does not have. If I as a small time investor, what do you think the big time investors will do? They will sit on their money and not invest until they are sure the rules return to some type of consistency and follow the law.

Thanks Daryl. I understand the point. However nobody points to the actual "law" that was and is being broken. I make a very specific distinction here.

I agree it was not done in a "normal" fashion. But the lack of code, paragraph, and section in these claims makes it a claim. If I alledge that someone broke a law, I supply the appropriate details not generalities.

Thanks

So how do we continue to increase wages without increasing prices and creating inflation? I am not aware of any union worker who went down in wages 50%, but I am aware of wages that were readjusted for new hires. I have many family in unions and they concurred that the long term model did not work anymore, but none of them took a 50% wage cut, they took freezes, and began paying for health care and their own pension, just like the rest of the workers. The white collar GM worker just had their pensions taken away, they are not screaming, but reestablishing their own savings plan and 401(k), but it is because defined pensions do not sustain a long term healthy company which is needed to be able to keep people employed, who then spend money for things. No one is responsible for taking care of you when you retire, again this is accountability. This forum is too long to go into the overall economics and how it works, but again I am not aware of any person who took the paycuts you describe.

There are many union supply auto workers.

I mentioned disposable income. We have been living on a thirty year stagnant wage. While everything else went up in price our wages didn't go with it. Look at Germany's economic model.

Grady - Increasing wages? On what planet. Instead of making stuff up, try looking at the statistics. Google is your friend. Here, read this article from Bloomberg's Business Week entitled "real wages stagnant" unless you think this is a socialist too. http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2008/11/real_wages_cont.html

Mr./Mrs. Oakland, thank you for sharing with me your insight. I guess my Micro and Macro economics degree is off base.

kidcat24, I can't believe that. Going from $27 to $14, he can still live on that. I know
because I was raised growing up as a Democrat with a Father that was head union
leader. It is not the Republicans that makes it worse for us, it goes back to Roosevelt
and welfare, etc was all started. The problem is union workers spend beyond their
means and then wonder why they are indebt. So don't blame the Republicans for things, I vote Republican and am a conservative even if my family votes the other way.

Carol, you are one of those Democrats that vote in the primary as a Republican just
like a lot of teachers, then go back to voting for Obama and this world will even get
worse than what it is.

Carol I for one person can't stand when they debate because it is not like a real
debate. I would rather see them talk one on one to a good reporter,, which is really
an interview and give their opinions. That makes more sense to me.

Brian, what is wrong with you. If you want to live like him than move to China.
You are starting to talk just like him, a socialist.

Audre, some of your comments in this thread are bordering on personal attacks (which violates our terms of use), so I kindly ask you to please watch what you post so we can keep this an open, productive discussion. Thank you.

The deficit is a problem. Which is why taxes should be raised. Especially on the wealthy.

Expenses could also be cut. Most of the budget is Social Security, Medicare, and homeland security. Which should we start with, Steve?

Social Security hasn't added one dime to the deficit, and if we passed single payer health care, we could trim big money from the deficit. The Bush tax cuts need to expire on the free loaders, and we need to get out of all of the wars Republicans got us into. Homeland Security and Defense are the two biggest budget busters.

"It's not quite a tank. But the quaint town of 23,000 -- scene of just two murders since 1999 -- had just accepted a $285,933 grant from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to purchase a Bearcat, an eight-ton armored personnel vehicle made by Lenco Industries Inc."

All I've got to say is "bin laden's dead, and GM is alive" - no thanks to Romney, Snyder or Santorum.

Re: "The post office, for instance, receives ZERO taxpayer funds, and hasn't since 1982."

Not entirely true Hartland. The USPO has been "borrowing" money from the Federal Financing Bank (Treasury) which is funded with tax dollars. As of January 2012 the FFB is holding 13.6 billion of "I.O.U.s" from money "lent" to the USPO. That 13.6 billion came from somewhere and that somewhere is tax dollars.

Bryce, the post office only has to borrow money because they're forced by law to fully fund in 10 years the next 75 years worth of pension benefits. They're funding pensions for employees that haven't even been born yet. Something no other business nor government entity has to do.

The "shared sacrifice" concept is a farce. His definition of sharing is to confiscate property from one and give it to another. That isn't sharing. Sharing is done of one's own volition.

You did not dispute what I said. Taxes are lower as a percent of GDP than they've been in decades. All your other info is correct. Except for your lie that 46% of people don't pay taxes at all. Anyone that works pays federal taxes. It's called social security and medicare tax, and it's 6%. Eliminating departments that you talk about is peanuts. The vast majority of spending is social security, medicare, and homeland security. Those absolutely have to be cut to have any meaningful impact on spending. The post office, for instance, receives ZERO taxpayer funds, and hasn't since 1982. So cutting it would have zero impact on the debt. Zero.

If spending is the problem, and not revenue - why don't you give up your income? According to you, it won't impact you one bit.

Revenue is the problem. Our society wants the benefits of what the government spends money on. Health care in retirement, homeland security, retirement income, a social safety net, etc. Problem is that no one wants to pay for it.

You don't know what you're talking about. The post office is operating under a ridiculous pension obligation that Bush signed into law in 2006, with the obvious intention of busting the largest federal employee union.

You did lie. You said 46% don't pay taxes. That is a lie. You did not say federal income taxes. You said taxes. In addition to federal ss and medicare tax, all pay sales taxes. Many pay property taxes. Many pay state tax.

The problem with conservatives is that they don't realize how easily they could wind up in a position of needing help.

Oblamers 3000 pages of healthcare taxes will wipe out everything......while he puffs away on his cigarettes worrying about our health.

The problem with conservatives is that they like to spend money just as much as anyone else...but they only want it spent on things that benefit them. "Conservatives" ran up over 2/3rds of the current deficit, spending wildly over the last decade or so. They spend loads of money on their own, funneling tax dollars to "faith-based" programs and conservative initiatives. This is my money, too, so if you're so incensed about taxes going to programs you don't like..then I get to be angry about the money being wasted by the right.

"The problem with liberals and socialist, they want to spend other people's money". Hilarious. The very definition of government support is "other people's money", oh, which means mine and yours. If you think government is irrelevant - don't ever accept Social Security money, or unemployment benefits, or Medicare. These are all "socialist" by your own definition. Don't use the roads, bridges and infrastructure that tax dollars paid for. Refuse service from your local police and fire departments, and don't fly...because this security is provided by your own government.

The problem with conservatives these days is.....they don't make much sense.

Nice post, Scott. Spot on.

Bonnie, who are you kidding? Now that you've destroyed the global economy you want to distance yourself from the mess you people made. Oh no. The Republican Party has become synonymous with religious zealots, bigots, war mongers, freeloaders and incompetent capitalists run amok. Barry Goldwater looks like a hippy compared to you conservatives.

This frequent chiding of posters to "be nice" is getting tiresome. Most of your site traffic is driven from the postings. People obviously like the tone of the conversation or they wouldn't keep coming back. Don't post stories on controversial subjects and allow open anonymous forum posts if you want a happy utopia where everyone plays nice. That's not how the real world operates. Or, start banning posters you don't like (you know censor the forum) or turn off the comments. In either case watch your site traffic plummet. You don't have much else to offer, frankly.

Yes, I agree it is getting tiresome, and I wish I didn't have to remind some readers to be nice. We want our readers to keep commenting and having a healthy discussion, but we do NOT want them to call other readers names or personally attack them – or worse, be on the receiving end of these attacks – in this forum. That is not a way to have a robust discussion about politics or anything else – that is simply childish and will not be tolerated. Words can be very hurtful.

Patch is meant to be a safe place for people to come to learn more about their community and stay connected – not come under personal attack for disagreeing with another user. If you do not agree, nobody says you have to keep posting here.

And yes, I have banned users before for repeatedly not adhering to our terms of use and closed down threads that have gotten out of control; it was much better than the alternative, and I will continue to ban users who do not adhere to our terms by creating a hostile environment on Patch. That is not what Patch is about.

Jen

Jen,

I believe something needs to be done with the vile disrespectful posts many people leave in these comments. I would encourage the Patch to enforce the terms and conditions, especially the one that states "You may not use any aliases or other means to mask your true identity."

Just looking at this article and comments many have just turned it into a base both parties session and become way off base from the article. I have been guilty of that myself and got sucked in, but try and correct and return to the article at hand.

I find the people with fake names post the vilest comments that just attack and add nothing to the conversation. They are cowards and hide behind a false identity; I with the Patch would delete their accounts based on not following the terms and conditions, they are ruining the potential of the Patch.

Thank you Jen.

Post 911 security costs. Don't get carried away now :)