Union"s do protect bad workers, but they also help good ones. There is no way local government should be able to cancel an existing contract without warning as with the City of Detroit. Copanines need better negotiators if they are unhappy with the outcome after they meet for months to hash out something that works for them both. Let's be clear, only the goverment agencies and news outlets that have contracts are fighting against this...

great minds think alike, Joe.
you are spot on.
YES on Proposal 1, NO on all the others.
Proposals 2,3,4,5,6 are all money/power grabs by special interests.

I do not see where the Emergency Financial Manager has improved any of the cities in Michigan.

@The Duke of Royal Oak
The Emergency Financial Manager is there to keep them out of bankruptcy, not improve them.

Some people are such idiots. Vote NO on prop 1. Vote YES on Prop 2. Vote NO on Prop 3. Vote YES on Prop 4. Vote YES on Prop 5. Vote YES on prop 6. TIME TO STOP ALL THE POLITICS IN SPENDING MONEY AND TAKING PEOPLE'S RIGHTS AWAY BY MAINLY THE REPUBLICANS!!!!!!!!

for those who are not a union worker, that is by definition a special interest group.

also note, the National Labor Relations Board (and various Federal statutes) already protects collective bargaining. muddying the State's already convoluted constitution is silly.

Ha!! unions kill industry my friend... If you need protection it just shows that alot are not hard working.... if they had to survive in the real world, half would be fired!!

Look at what happened without unions when it was BUSINESS that esablished the rules. Child labor,excessive working hours, poor working conditions, etc. etc.. Look into history as your guide, Triangle Shirt Factory, N.Y. N.Y.

unAmerican is allowing cities like Flint, Detroit, and Pontiac to continue to mismanage public funds, signing legacy, long-term contracts full of corruption.

unAmerican is expecting your local constituents to still be forced to continue to hand over more, and more of their money even as their city spirals further downward into blight

the B.S. advertisement about the Silverdome is a classic example - the former City Officials were greedy and ignored the time value of money, ignored the FACT that there is not a viable use/tenant for the space and turned away many, many multiple million offers on the property.

$582,000 purchase price makes it sound like the City got robbed on a structure that cost ~$59M to build until you factor in that the property was losing 7 figures per year (for up to ½ a decade) in maintenance just to sit idle/vacant - a sum that likely the new owners have also faced.

real estate is valued like a bond, or annuity - how much of a return can you generate during a certain holding period. the silverdome's holding period is speculative at best, but will very, very likely show operating losses for the next decade or more.

how much would you pay for the opportunity to shell out millions per year in maintenance for the miniscule chance that there may be a return 10 or 15 years down the road?

JohnKimble ~ all cities mismanage their funds. To what degree and who gets caught is at issue...If the governer wanted to run all the cities in the state with his friends, he should have had them run for mayor to see if they could come in and do better without his help...

Ladya - perhaps then those that get caught, and go bankrupt should be seceded to some other area and not automagically become wards of the State.

This in a nutshell is the crux of the problem, mis-managed to the point of bankruptcy is not an option when the State already has its own fiscal issues. Forcing the rest of us to bail out defunct cities.

Snyder's cronies can't run for mayor in those cities - for one they aren't residents, for two, in order to get voted into office in those cities evidently you have to promise more of the cronyism that got them there in the first place...

It is very similiar to having a dictatorship.

Remember, Vote Yes on 1, NO on all the other proposals. 2-6 do not rise to the level of a constitiutional amendment.

Greg, those being replaced have demonstrated that they are incompetent elected officials driving cities into bankruptcy. Perhaps if we voted for better candidates we would not need the eManager.

Too bad there are too many uneducated people in this country that just want to vote for handouts instead of being productive members of society...

So only the UNEDUCATED people collect Social Security and Medicare!!!! Very brillant statement.

excellent comment :)

Big thumbs up Donny!! We need all of our elected reps to think and hold the values Justin does!

And a million young voters voted for President Obama. What's your point?

Silly comment kidcat24, she made her point very clearly. She is proud of her kids for voting and for who they voted for. Simply because it was not for your candidate is no call for being a snippy little prig.

GO For Life - If you look to the top right of your browser, there is a red X button. If you click that, you won't have to see the Patch's coverage of the most talked about topic of the day. If you don't understand why the Patch would cover an election that has national, state, and local implications, then I you might want to just go to a different web site. There are millions of other web sites in the world to choose from if you are not happy with this one. I, for one, am enjoying a local view of what the whole country is talking about.

Really CC you enjoy reading the drivel coming from all of the same characters on here for the last two months? They just blather their party line speech in an unending doldrum of average intelligence. I'm fine with the articles I just hate all the inane comments clogging up my newsfeed. Thanks for the tip hopefully I don't have to come across your comments ever again.

CC, yes, I understand there are "millions" of other websites on the internets. What I am going off about is that I come here for local news that won't be covered by other sources. I come here for hyper-local content that won't be covered outside the area. So when I come here and see that every recent article is on the election I become enraged. Look, one article and thread about the election from a hyper-local perspective is awesome. Four of them with the same inane comments of the last thousand doesn't add a lot of value.

GP for Life expose yourself why do you hide behind an alias. Your comments are silly and crazy. Add something to help the community quit tearing it down or find something better to do with your time... I think I saw someone J-Walking on the hill time for you to place a citizens arrest.

This is awesome, GP 4 Life! I have a new follower!

As my newest disciple you should be more familiar with my message. Please get to know the Three-Point GP For Life GP Revitalization Plan as mentioned here: http://grossepointe.patch.com/articles/three-restaurants-planned-for-grosse-pointe-park#comments

If you keep playing your cards right you might be able to swing a spot in my growing entourage of supporters, but you're going to have to step-up your game and come in for the big win.

I am GP For Life and my legions are growing.

JM - That's a typical Generation ME response. If I don't have something then nobody else should have it either. These people that Proposal 2 affects, the teachers, police and firefighters, are your public servants. They serve you and your community. Nice way to show your appreciation. Hopefully your house never catches fire, nobody breaks into your house, and your kids don't need extra help from a teacher. Never in my life have I seen such a bunch of ungrateful, whiny people as I've witnessed this election. All of your morons sure didn't mind passing Proposal A which put the screws to most public school districts, and you want to screw the teachers because you think they make to much money (even though they have master's degrees), yet you want to whine and complain about the quality of education. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Just remember one thing...you get what you pay for.

Jerry I work in a public school and they are infiltrated with republicans. So republicans can whine all they want but it is those republicans teaching children and sucking off the system. They're hypocrites.

And watch how fast you would be working 6 days a week , 12 hour shifts, no benefits, no vacation. Learn your history...Triangle Waist Shirt Factory, N.Y. N.Y.

Jerry -Typical Pro Union Response-So I guess the ME is you wanting more-Also we pay you for what you do-That is appreciation enough and we still do not get what we the tax payers pay for-Nice calling the people that pay your salary morons-

Yes you are right it takes a person that arrogant and consider themselves above all people-and what sights do you seen in Shelby Twp
-When your biggest story of the year is a bust at a gas station-get real

Bill Peters-- you should proof read your junk before posting- It's hard read- Can't follow-anyone who votes no on a millage that costs pennys a day and helps school children is a gigantic cheapskate.

THE WORK GOES ON,
THE CAUSE ENDURES,
THE HOPE STILL LIVES
AND THE DREAMS SHALL NEVER DIE. Senator Edward Kennedy

I'm sure if you put on your tin foil hat and asked the nice men in the black helicopters they'd fly you down to Ohio so you could take a look see.

Still rejecting reality and truth, eh SKpatriotmich? You wrote " Who would vote for the status quo....8% unemployment...more people in poverty....no jobs...exhorbitant gas prices...an economy in the toilet...47% on food stamps...I want to see the ballots!!!"

8%? No. 7.9%. Economy where? Maybe in the toilet in your residence, not but not every house in the country. No jobs? Wouldn't that mean unemployment would be 100%? 47% on food stamps? 47% of what?

I know facts to you are like sunlight to vampires, so put on your sunglasses before reading: "Confidence among U.S. consumers climbed to a five-year high in November, improving the prospects of bigger spending gains that will help spur the expansion." (http://goo.gl/r6QOJ) Oh, and for kicks, view the history of private sector job gains and losses from 2008 to now: http://goo.gl/x04KT

SK, Obama is Santa Claus, don't you know that? Would you vote against someone who gives you all kinds of entitlements, such as food stamps, welfare, Obamaphones, Section 8 housing, and school lunches for your kids, as you drop them off in your Escalade? Of course you would vote for him. For the entitlements.
FH says unemployment is dropping, sure it is, always does at Christmas when stores hire part timers. Only this time, the part timers will be the norm, as more and more folk are told by their employers, "sorry, you are working Mon , Tues, Wed. , that's it" . Someone else will be hired to work the rest of the week. Result? More folk working, Lower unemployment. Also less money per job per week, since it is part time, but that does not make the papers, does it?
http://washingtonexaminer.com/examiner-editorial-obamacares-price-full-time-jobs-become-part-time/article/2512659#.UJ4B4Rwug5s

FH is right, more jobs are being created by Obama and Obamacare, part time jobs, jobs that you can't live on. No wonder the Federal Santa Claus program of handing out Food Stamps is so popular, can't live on Obama part time jobs. Raise the Fed minimum wage, force the employers to pay a living wage. How about $36 an hour? Not enough? Then join a union and demand a living wage of $45 an hour. Right. And you wonder why companies move overseas? Simple.
High taxes, & high labor costs. With Obama, those taxes are going up a lot higher.

The problem with your little doomsday scenario is that Massachusetts has been running Obamacare since 2006 and none of these things that you predict have happened. It's called Romneycare. Very, very similar programs, with very similar mandates and penalties for individuals and businesses. Obamacare isn't some mad, untested social experiment. It's already been implemented and proven successful in the state of Massachusetts. So please explain why all of sudden it will be a complete failure when when the rest of the U.S. copies it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brad-burd/obamacare-romneycare_b_1956075.html

Lee wrote "At least business owners won't be in the healthcare business anymore."

Ironically, many manufacturers who compete internationally find having to carry medical plan costs in their products makes them unacceptable.

Lee provides medical coverage as part of your employee compensation. If he thinks he can "Walmart" his employees by providing only part time employment, he's fooling himself. His understanding of the costs and penalties has already been documented here.

And finally, Lee recites this cautionary tale: " It will be common for families , where once there was just one breadwinner, now it is common to have two breadwinners, soon, it will be common for those breadwinners to have two or more jobs each." Obviously, he doesn't know that the Bush economic crash already forced many families into just those kinds of desperate situations.

Clearly, Lee is misinformed and out of touch, but worse, his hatred of President Obama has shut down his "can do" entrepreneurial spirit to the point where he plans to play small ball. Shame.

John Galt is a fictional character.

Lee,

Well stated, as it turns out the bad guys are now the business owners and are being demonized and attacked by people who do not understand how to run a business and have never done it.

The people commenting are living on paychecks and benefits that are not sustainable and once they become personally affected they will understand what the reality of the job market. Right now they are protected which gave them raises (step increases) and no participation in their generous benefit packages. As these entities go through failure this will all change drastically and they will continue to demonize the business owner as the bad guy.

Uncertainty is now over; we all now know what the business environment will be for the next 4-6 years. Businesses have a planning cycle they conduct in late summer and finalize in the fall for the next year. I see that most businesses had 2 plans based on the 2 very different paths we as a country were choosing in the election.

The people have spoken with the election and chose a path. It is clear that taxes will go up, costs will go up and sales will be affected. At best we will just repeat the last 4 years, which was dismal for the business community. Others fear we do not have more stimulus money to spend to keep the pace of the last 4 years and we will slip into a recession.

Business is making plans to survive in the now certain chosen path; survival mode means no major investments that lead to jobs.

Lee & Daryl: You dribble the classic conservative bullet points that only serve a minority of the population. You try to pigeon hole me as something I am not. I have owned and operated businesses that bought and sold goods and services all the while working a full-time job for an employer other than myself. I have been semi-retired for the past 2+ years. I have paid off all of my bills, never sought any aid, and I’m paying for my retirement right now from my own savings, I’m about 15 years outside of any Social Security. I have taken the risks and I mostly worked over 70 hours a week to minimize my risks. The rhetoric you spew here is from the playbook of the past, and frankly has no place in the American Fabric any longer. Look around, things have changed over the past 30+ years. The economics of the US that we are suffering from where ushered in by Reagan and now you’re complaining that you should move your business off shore.

Daryl P. wrote "Business is making plans to survive in the now certain chosen path; survival mode means no major investments that lead to jobs."

Really?

From the Detroit News TODAY (http://goo.gl/WjPbt):

Chrysler Group LLC announced nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in new investments Thursday and said it would add about 1,250 jobs at three of its Michigan plants to boost production of engines and pickup trucks.

The Auburn Hills automaker confirmed previously reported plans to invest $198 million to add production of its Pentastar V-6 motor at its Mack I Engine Plant in Detroit — a move that is expected to create 250 new jobs at the factory.

Chrysler also said it will add a third shift at its Warren Truck Assembly Plant in March of next year. That will mean the addition of about 1,000 new jobs at that factory, which produces the Ram 1500 pickup.

Finally, the company said it would invest $40 million in its Trenton North Engine Plant to install a flexible assembly line capable of building both the Pentastar and four-cylinder Tigershark motor.

Clearly the Chicken Little Club is filled with sufferers of Obama Derangement Syndrome. This evidence of significant future investment should shock them back into reality, but they shall not be moved.

Boiling and FHVoice,

Of course you do not agree with me as you continue to hide behind a fake name, come out of hiding, this is America and we still have free speech. I see you both keep spewing the same insults at people who do list their names and try to demonize them. Come out of hiding and join in on an adult conversation.

I am in the active business community and know what is going on and how businesses are making plans for the increased costs they are going to see starting in 2013. In business we have to live within a budget and reality, so we have to plan ahead, this is what we are doing.

I just attended a conference on Venture Capitalist and Angle Investors to see how they are going to act in the new reality. The cost of investments just went up with higher taxes and capital gains increases limiting the investments to new companies creating innovative products. It is a math problem and these changes that are our "New Normal" has consequences and will cause less innovation due to the higher costs for risky investments.

You can call me "Chicken Little" but I am assessing what the new reality is and the cost to do business in this environment. Higher costs mean less money for investment and jobs. Then this money goes to the government who is not known for spending money wisely without any accountability. But this is now our "New Normal" and business will find a way to survive in this environment. We are making plans to survive.

Rolly,

Read the post above and come out of hiding. Be a real person and have an adult intelligent conversation.

What is your obsession with this? I think you should address the issue and not the person. Therefore, there is no reason to "come out of hiding" unless you plan ad hominem attacks/ stalking.

Boiling, let's see some links to back up your statements, you are talking off the top of your head. Here is a link to show just how absurd you are that you don't see the obvious, it's only from the Wall St. Journal and Eaton is just a multi million dollar 109 yr old firm fleeing the USA from Ohio....to save on taxes....only 11% in Ireland vs 45% in USA.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444230504577615232602107536.html

Let me do the math for you again.... For every dollar I make in the USA, 45 cents goes to Uncle Sam. If I am based in Ireland, like Eaton Corp, only 11 cents goes to the govt. Seems like 4 times the savings to me, how is your math? Boiling, you are in the minority. Most folk don't have your sense of saving, initiative, and , since you are 15 yrs from SS, that means you are in your late 40s. My guess is that you had a job that allowed you freedom to run another sales operation of your own, perhaps something in govt that allowed you to retire early. Firefighting, Military? That is not the norm in our society, 70 hour weeks , part time will be the norm...
Regarding education, more money is not the answer. Look at the results in Detroit. Wise spending is the answer. You mention other countries? They dropped the 'summer off for harvest ' concept decades ago. Our kids should be going to school year round, ,and yes, the teachers will have to work 12 months and pay their share of Obamacare like the rest of us.

Duke, communication is the key, and hiding your head in the sand will not make the debt go away, will not explain Obamacare, and why companies are transferring the burden of cost back to the govt and employees once again, as it was before WWII. After all , if you want a service, then you should pay for it, right? It willl be interesting to see Boiling going to the Obamacare exchanges, and getting a reality check. Ditto for FH voice. By shutting down the thrread, you somehow feel that the issues will melt away....

FHvoice, regarding Chrysler , note that Chrysler is saving Fiat , not the other way around like Obama wanted, and that we should commend Chryler , while condemn GM (govt motors), as they are moving much of their operations to China. See link.
http://newmediajournal.us/indx.php/item/6664

You can pretend that all is 'wonderful' in Obamaland, but there comes a time when the folk with money to risk will look at the odds, the higher taxes, the regulations, and simply say, It's not worth the risk anymore. Others, like Eaton Corp, will seek greener pastures .
We will soon be under Biden anyway, when Obama is tossed out for his Obamagate coverup, which gets more convoluted everyday.

FHVoice,

No one is whinning, we are stating the "New Normal" and how we are going to act as business in this new environment. Elections and decisions have consequences, this is what is going to happen so business can survive and find a way to thrive.

Poor Daryl. He is so sad that Obama won. Has to take it out on the Patch community.

yeah, well, some other junk food company will fill the Twinkie void. The company will probably have to hire new employees to meet the growing demand.

Someone's loss is someone's gain. For example, I will never eat Papa Johns or shop at Walmart ever again. "Freedom of choice". I will continue to eat pizza and shop, though. Just not at ultra right wing corporations which bully their employees. And I expect masses of consumers to do likewise.

Typical anti-union drivel, Lee. Read my response to this issue here: http://farmington-mi.patch.com/articles/poll-which-hostess-treat-will-you-miss-the-most#comment_5516814

Bottom line? You analysis is wrong. Again.

Yes, those evil hostess unions folks were greedy. That is why they agreed to to $110 million in cuts in 2004? The management squandered it and still went out of business. The company has had 6 CEOs and no one was able to save it. Then they had the nerve to blame it on the employees. Just like Papa Johns reducing hours and increasing the price of pizza - for Obamacare whose provisions won't come into effect until 2014. Meanwhile, he gets to line his own pockets at the cost of his employees. In addition, he pissed off 52% of the population who realize that there are other places to buy pizza. When he finally goes out of business he will probably blame his employees again. Damn greedy employees wanting to take their kids to the doctor!

If you want a lower tax rate why DON'T you take your company to Ireland? I think that you realize that there are other benefits that you have by having your company in the US. Also, that low tax rate is not for all businesses and mostly benefits large multinational manufacturing firms, so good luck with that. BTW, you might want to check Ireland's credit rating with Moody's before you pack your bags.

Oh, and the Hostess union folks were not demanding more money, they were refusing further concessions. Plus they were ticked off that Hostess was not fulfilling their pension obligations in violation of their contract.

I have seen nothing about blaming it on Obamacare. I think you are making that up.

The unions were not entirely blameless. However, to say "the unions killed Hostess" and then somehow blaming that on Obama and/or Obamacare is disingenuous. You did not address how management squandered the millions of investment dollars and union concessions, you did not address the 6 CEOs since 2004 or the pillaging of millions of dollars for raises and golden parachutes for the upper management. I suspect that you would have also blamed KMart's near bankruptcy on the employees as well (it was clearly bad management). I hate stupid inflexible union rules. It is up to the unions to recognize and correct the things that just create costs and hassle and get rid of them in order to remain relevant for the next century. However, you conflate this bankruptcy with Obamacare, unions in general, liberals etc. which is exactly the type of partisan thinking that has led to gridlock.